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Post by moogman on Jul 11, 2006 3:07:16 GMT -5
do you ever recon Religion will die out? you urself said that you beleive there are less followers, I think its a fact that there are less and less every year who follow religions in genral? at the rate of deline is it logical to think that eventually religion will simply fade out??
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Post by Tyual on Jul 11, 2006 3:38:50 GMT -5
No. There are less followers of the catholic religion, but I believe that actually in overall sense, there are actually growing numbers of religious people. It may not be christianity, but in general, a religion of some form will continue to exist I believe. A lot of why the catholics are losing numbers (in percent, not actual numbres. In actual numbers, I believe they are still going up. but losing % to othe religions/sects) is because that there is more worldy things to some other religions. Like Islam tells you that you get 7 virgins in heaven, right, or something similar. And the prodestant sects of christianity don't make you say a thousand hail mary's and pay money to be forgiven your sins, or go to confession all the time. All you have to do is say your personal prayers and admit your mistakes to God, ask forgiveness. Not make a public spectacle of it. And that is something a lot of people like, and so rather than following the catholic way of worship, they go with other sects, or even they like the idea of getting 7 virgins, so they follow Islam. I know this probably isn't most cases, but there are some like that....
But no, I believe that overall, the number of religious people is up, but the diversity and percentage for each is probably down. That's what I meant by the catholics being down in number, by % to other religions, not by overall count. Sorry.
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Post by 2bfoundwanting on Jul 11, 2006 8:32:41 GMT -5
Religion will not die out, but certain religions will. Religions that are not able to change with the times perish, because people must find relevance in there lives pretaining to the religion to continue to believe in them.
And Ty. Im not talking about organized and disorganized. Im talking about our brains and how they work fundamentally. Im not talking about the fact that my room is a disaster with no place for anything, Im talking about the fact that my mind places information in categories. EVERYONES mind does it.
Second. You dont understand. OF COURSE you think that Time is evident in nature, becuase our brains are UNABLE to see it anyother way. YES our brains are powerful. They are unbelievably powerful. I understand that. BUT NO, they can not understand everything. They are restricted to how they are constructed. Shown by the fact that we are unable to think out of context of time and space. We are unable to think that there may be nothing outside of the universe. Yes we say its possible because of evidence, but we cant REALLY understand it.
How do you not see that because you are unable to understand it you dont know your not understanding it? Thus, of course to you, you think that you must be able to fathom everything presented to you? Im sorry, I know I am not supposed to get into this on this thread... but ithink this shall have to be a subject we agree to disagree on!
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Post by Tyual on Jul 11, 2006 13:13:05 GMT -5
Yes it is, because I disagree completely. I'd say that I can perfectly well anything that is presented to me. I believe that I can learn anything I want to, if there is information on it. Maybe that's slightly arrogant, but I do believe that. It's my faith in the human mind's capability. God made man in his image, and a God is all knowing, I believe that gives us the chance to learn and know as much as can be presented to our minds. Granted, by in his image doesn't mean an exact copy, thus why are aren't omnipotent. However, we can learn and gain knowledge to become intelligent. Which is in his image, the ability to be inteligent.
As for time-space it is possible to think outside of it. However, it is my belief that in the physical world we live in, it doesn't matter because in our phyiscal realm, time and space do exist. That is scentific fact. Granted, the things we don't know/don't have information avaliable to learn from, then no we can't understand it. Because we don't know about it's existance. However, I believe that it can be discovered or created and then we can learn about it. We just need the right technology, tools, scientific advancements, etc.
As much as I believe in religion and that science can't explain -why- things happen, I do believe that it can explain the -how- of 99.5% of everything in existance.
"Second. You dont understand." .....Don't take personal attacks. Please. Telling me that I don't understand is like saying I'm stupid. Even if that wasn't your intention, it came out that way. I understood completley what you said, I just disagree.
"We are unable to think that there may be nothing outside of the universe."
By the very definition of universe, that means that there CAN'T be anything outside of it, because the UNIverse is EVERYTHING in the physical world. It includes everything that exists. So whaty ou're implying is there is something outside of existance, and anything outside the phyiscal existance would fall into the belief of a non-physical, or spiritual realm as I prefer to call it.
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Post by seffy on Jul 11, 2006 19:19:26 GMT -5
Seffy: Hypothesising, I suppose so. However, we believe that something happens to us after death, and I believe everyone has agreed on that. Woah, dude. I don't recall ever saying anything like that. I firmly believe that when I die, that's it. No long tunnel of light, no Angels, no fire and brimstone. The only after-life is in the way people who knew me remember me. "Oh, Seffy. Yeah, I remember him. A right arguementative SOB he was." ;D
Sorry guys, but I'm knackered and my head hurts. I'll post again tomorrow.
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Post by Tyual on Jul 11, 2006 20:38:18 GMT -5
Again, sorry Seffy, some things you had said earlier I took to imply that you believed something happened after death, even if just like Limbo, not necessarially heaven or hell. I did the same thing with Moog. Sorry.
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Post by 2bfoundwanting on Jul 11, 2006 21:15:32 GMT -5
Sorry for making a personal attack. I didn't intend to.
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Post by moogman on Jul 12, 2006 3:43:06 GMT -5
ok i got a few questions for ya, nothing you need to answer if any of it makes you uncomfy or antyhing then dont answer by all means.
A) do you beleive in Aliens? If so did God create them aswell? B) Homosexuality? a yes or a no C) Do you think God is happy with what we have become? D) Do yo beleive God cares about the huge cathedrals we build him or would he be happy if we prayed to him in a shed that we called a church?
Ok they were pretty random questions but just things I would like to know?
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Post by Tyual on Jul 12, 2006 14:27:35 GMT -5
1) I don't take a stand on their existance. I believe it's possible but to say yes they exist is a bit far out for me with no evidence supporting for/against it other than a few people saying they sighted them, usually uncreditable sources from what I've seen. The difference in this and religion, before anyone even brings it up, is that religion has creditable religious leaders/prophets through the ages. People who claim to see aliens to my experience of seeing them are usually drunks, druggies, people with already wild imaginations, someone who is severely tramautized or has been, etc. and if they do exist, then yes I believe God created them.
2)A big no. My religion and scientifically. a) Religion: It says in leveticus that man should not sleep with man as he sleeps with woman (Aka in the same manner.) It says that it is an offense punishable by death. Obviously this was in the days of the old testament and since the time of Jesus, that is no longer how it is to be handled, but it does still say that it is wrong. b) ManxWoman = Reproduction. ManxMan and WomanxWoman =/= reproduction. Reproduction = continuation of species. So if we aren't straight then we cease to exist. Granted, now science has artificial births and such, but without a man to donate and a woman to receive, it would be useless. So even science proves that as we exist now we need to have some degree of heterosexuality to exist. (AKA the man giving sperm to woman, and the woman accepting it, even if placed artificially)
3) God loves us. Does this mean he likes everything we do? No. I mean do your parents always like everything you do? No, but odds are they will always love you. So even if he is upset with us, he loves us as we are his children. As for if he is happy with us, I don't know. I wouldn't be. As Seffy said, we manipulate religion in his name as an excuse for war, we no longer want to even admit he exists when his whole purpose for us was to have a relationship with him. ...such and so forth, I could list a few more. So I don't know if he is, but in his shoes, I wouldn't be.
4) I believe that he likes them, yes. They bring people together, they're a common ground for his people. He even ordered them to be built in the old testament. However, I don't think that he holds it against us for not going to them. I believe that if we have our faith, it doesn't matter if we practice at home or if we practice in public, or in a church, or where ever. So although I think he likes and appreciates them, they are not a necessity.
That's my thinking on it.
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Post by moogman on Jul 12, 2006 14:32:46 GMT -5
cool thanks for ur honest answers Tyual
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Post by leavingmistress on Jul 12, 2006 23:13:13 GMT -5
Great debate guys and gals!! Keep it up. I will be reading in on here every now and then.
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Post by 2bfoundwanting on Jul 19, 2006 19:37:15 GMT -5
I know this has been asked before, but after a video I watched in Anthro today, I was just wondering if someone could try to explain it to me again...
Why are Christain people, or really.. most big religions right now, so positive that their religion is right? I really dont understand how they can think they know that they are right over everyone else just because they were raised that way.
But I really dont mean that question in an attacking way.. im really just... wondering.
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Post by Tyual on Jul 19, 2006 23:51:23 GMT -5
That is our faith in our religion. We believe, for our own reasons, that our religion of choice is the right one. Maybe life experiences, maybe just because someone said so, maybe because of study of them and feeling this one is right and the others aren't, just various reasons. And you have faith in what you believe to be truth. Thus, we believe that we are right.
Not to say that other religions are wrong, most of them teach basically the same ideals, but the major difference is in how they worship, the name they have for the same God, and who they believe the last prophet was. (Abraham for the Jews, Christ for the Christians, Muhhamed(sp) for the Islamics.)
Personally, that's why I just follow general Christianity, not a sect so much. Everyone has the right to worship in their own way, rather it be bowing to the east or group prayer, or whatever. So I'm not gonna tell someone else their method of doing the same thing I'm doing is wrong.
I have my own reasons for believing Christ was the messiah, namely the fact that his is the only prophet whose body cannot be found that they know the location of burial for. Why? Beecause I believe he really did rise again, the resurrection, and only the son of God, the messiah, could do that. That's one of them, not to mention the way I was brought up, seeing the things that my faith has done for me and other people. Granted, if I were Islamic, I'd probably attribute that to Allah's blessing or whatever, but I have my own reasons outside of how I was raised to believe that Christianity is the correct of the major religions.
Let me note: This does not mean I believe Catholics are right. I believe they are corrupt, horrible to misinterpret the Bible, and try to change what it says and it's meanings to fit what they want. I disagree with that heavily. I rather think of them more like their own religion or a cult type society than a religion...Simply because they misuse the Bible so much. To make things they want to exist, exist, when otherwise, taking the Bible for the Bible, not for some bad interpritation, would not exist.
But yeah, did I answer your question?
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Post by 2bfoundwanting on Jul 20, 2006 0:06:08 GMT -5
Yes it did.. very well.
I still dont think I agree... but nowi understand, which is good.
Thank you for, once again, writing a cogent, understandable reasoning!
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Post by moogman on Jul 24, 2006 2:44:32 GMT -5
Ooh i have a question for ya? does anyone who is relgios find the monty pythons life of Brian offensive? Im guessing not because everyone in here seems pretty laid back about such issues but I know some people got really upset and distraught about the Python antics? i suppose an additional question to this is why do u think that is?
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Post by Tyual on Jul 24, 2006 20:09:05 GMT -5
I'll be honest and say I don't know anything about Monty Python. I've never had an interest in it. So I don't find things I don't know about offensive, haha. Although, I probably wouldn't anyways.
The only things I find offensive are people bashing religion, when I don't bash theirs, and things like "Jesus Kills" (pun of Crack Kills), Jesus was a stoner, such and so on, things like that bug me. I don't make Muhammud jokes or Jew jokes, or atheist jokes, I don't appreciate christain jokes like that.
Now things like The DaVinci Code, I don't mind that. I mean I don't find anything so far out about Jesus having possibly been a father, and it not being recorded. Or that there were gospels not recorded in the Bible. The gospels were just the accounts of his life according to certain people, I'm sure more than 4 of them were written. Even though I doubt it, the idea isn't unacceptable to me. And even if was, I accept that it's a work of ficition and not meant as an insult to my beliefs.
So I hope those analogies will help you figure out if I would find it offensive or not.
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Post by moogman on Jul 25, 2006 1:53:13 GMT -5
LMAO Atheist Jokes, now those I would like to hear.
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Post by Tyual on Jul 25, 2006 2:16:05 GMT -5
Nothing special. They usually suck and revolve around the "Well you don't believe in anything so....this this and this which is really stupid..." kind of deal. I don't particularly care for any religious jokes, except I like poking at Islamics....and not so much their religion, as their lifestyle. I make a lot of camel and llama jokes, and pun on the virgins in Heaven or whatever it is exactly they believe on that, and if I catch someone laying/bowing/knelt to the east, I make jokes at them about praying to Allah now, especially if I know they're Christian, because they get all upset about it. rather funny watching them try to recover from that one.
But I never go making jokes about Muhammud, except making jokes about how they're all named Muhammud or something, "Which one, Muhhammad?" "No! Muhammud!" "I thought it was Muhhamad?" "They're all named Muhhamud, how do you know which one is which?" (and yes I spelt it different everytime except the last on purpose.)
But yeah, if I make jokes I try to direct them at their culture, not at their religion, which is hard sometimes when the middle eastern culture is based so strongly on their religion.
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Post by 2bfoundwanting on Sept 4, 2006 15:06:15 GMT -5
I personally dont like jokes that are aimed at someones culture or religion or lifestyle. I think jokes are things that are meant to make even the person they are directed at laugh. like "haha, yah its true, haha"
but i absolutely abhor how cruel jokes have gotten nowadays. Especially gay jokes. It makes me sick how people think that being mean is funny. When you look back at comedians in the past their jokes may be pocking fun at something but its normally an establishment, not a group of people or type of person or a lifestyle choice. And if it is, its something that everyone can laugh at, not something that is cruel and borderline hateful.
I mean, i agree comedy is based on bringing out what people are uncomfortable with, but i dont think that should include cruelty.
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Post by Tyual on Sept 4, 2006 20:42:23 GMT -5
Well, the thing about that is, you have to be able to laugh at yourself. If someone makes a joke at me for being tall or big, I just laugh it off. Or for something I say or do, I can laugh at myself. I can even take jokes at my religion if they're meant as a joke, not as being an a-hole.
Gay jokes....well I disagree with homosexuality because 1) of my religion and 2) nature says the human species can't reproduce without manXwoman, which tells me that it wasn't meant to be manXman or womanXwoman naturally, so when I talk about that, I generally don't even make jokes, I made very heavily emphasized points stating my heavy dislike of it. Although I admit, I know a few gay people I go to school with I get along with fine, I just disagree with their lifestyle choice and they know it. I also have several female friends who classify themselves as Bi, which doesn't bother me so much, because Bi means you're still sleeping with the opposite sex some, which means the world can continue to popultae, lol! I mean religiously, I disagree with being bisexual even, but I can deal with it better than pure homosexuality.
In general, I try to keep the comedian thing you mentioned: something everyone can laugh at, even people of what's being made a joke at.
Also I have to note that the ideas of cruelty have changed now, since so many people are so emo and sensative and cannot handle a joke or laugh at themselves, they get very upset and respond very harshly to any little thing said about their beliefs. Christians are especially bad about this. They take everything personally. And I hate that. If you ever see me diss on anyone, it's probably going to be some emo person who does that, because I absolutely cannot stand people who are so uptight that they can't laugh at anything.
But yeah, comedy, make it laughable by all audiences, even the one being poked fun at. I mean, I laugh when people make a white joke or a fat joke, but I don't want them getting mad if I make a black joke or a skinny joke in return. Know what I mean?
But I must note, that religious estbalishments are the worst responsive at jokes at them. They always get really mad and take it personally, when they shouldn't. Just laugh, shrug it off, and keep on going. Stop getting all angsty over it and letting it ruin your day. That's how I feel about it. Like the muslims getting mad about drawings of muhammad. so what? Laugh about it. I mean I laugh when I see people make funning drawings of Jesus. Just have some maturity and openmindedness and realize that not everyone shares your exact views.
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Post by Tyual on Sept 4, 2006 20:50:43 GMT -5
okay, I've got a question this time. I'm usually the one answering though, lol!
So we know that there are many religions and many lifestyles, so what do you guys think about incorperating ideas of one religion into your life, even though you claim another religion. I.E. I claim Christianity as my religion, but I actually find that there are principles in things such as Buddhism that help me in my daily life and as a person, and they in no way affect my beliefs in Christ/Christianity.
So how do you feel that doing things like that affect a person religiously, if they do at all? Or do they simply help the person in their life. (which is obviously what I think.)
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Post by 2bfoundwanting on Sept 5, 2006 1:26:14 GMT -5
Im sorry, Im going to ignore your latest post and refer to the one just above it because there are some things i feel i need to adress.
First of all. Emo. Everyone is called "Emo" nowadays if you have fricking emotions! It used to be called romanticism, or artistic, but now you are socially punished for having emotions. Im not talking about the trend, because the trend of "Im going to pretend to slit my wrist and listen to angsty songs just to get attention" is ridiculous. But it has become bigger. You are not allowed to be depressed without being called Emo, you are not allowed to be offended or upset by something that another person said about you without being "Emo".
Im sorry. But if someone calls me a B*tch, I am NOT going to simply laugh it off and move on. It offends me. I am going to stand up against that. But if i do i am called emo.
Excuse me. But I believe that there are certain things that do not just need to be laughed off and gotten over.
And as far as muslims needing to friggen laugh of muhamed being drawn in a comic. Excuse me but no. It isn't a simple case of "funny picture of jesus". One) For muslims to depict Muhammed is one of the most sacreligous things you can do. For christains they draw jesus all over the place. It is part of the culture and religion of christianity that it is acceptable and respectable to draw or depict Jesus. So just the fact that Muhammed was depicted in this cartoon is offensive. Two) This wasn't some funny Haha comic this was a comic that implied that ALL muslims are terrorists. And Im sorry but that just isn't true. A very SMALL percentage of muslims are terrorists. Most of them dont agree with what the extremist groups are doing. But this comic is implying that they are all bomb weilding extremist people who will blow you up if they get the chance. Im sorry but i find that just.. plain rude.
Just laugh it off you say? WHY SHOULD THEY NEED TO? Why should you need to just laugh off a racial slur? WHY ARE THEY THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE? Im sorry that there are people that have had to deal with tall jokes or fat jokes. Ive had to deal with my fair share of jokes as well. But the difference is that EVERY RACE, COLOR, AND CREED can be tall or fat or short or skinny. But to target black people because they are black is to target one specific group on something that they alone are that they do not have control over.
And I do not agree that everyone should move on. I think that cruel jokes ARE NOT necessary and thus do not need to be put up with. It was some peoples' idea of a joke to pretend to like me so that i would admit i liked them back and then throw it in my face. This was done to me several times in elementary and jr. high. And they thought I should just :get over it:. I tried, i really did. But end result? It is almost impossible for me to show ANY sign of liking a guy because I am petrified that he will make fun of me in someway and be cruel about it. It has taken me YEARS to get over what some people thought was a joke!
AND MY experience was childs play compared with some of the "jokes" black, hispanic and gay people (as well as others) have to put up with day in and day out.
So do i think they should have to laugh it off? No I dont.
And if im Friggen EMO for standing up for myself when I am hurt or offended. then fine.
I believe "emo" is just another tool used to make our generation even more apathetic than it already is. And I personally think apathy is terrible. So fine. Im Emo. I guess ill deal with that. But that doesn't mean I think i should HAVE to deal with others making fun of me for having EMOTIONS.
Im sorry that this strayed from religion slightly. But it all ties back to religious ideals in a way. How can any religion practice acceptance and respect and love for all when they disrespect others with thinly vailed "humor" and this isn't just christianity its all religious people that say that they are loving and accepting and then turn around and tell someone else that they aren't as good as them because they aren't their religion.
And I also want to apologize right now for sounding attacking. I really am sorry. Especially to you Tyual. Becuase I am aware that all that I am saying may come out sounding like I am directing it at you. But I really truely am not. These are just my thoughts on this subject. I personally find you to be a wonderful person with wonderful ideas. These particular ideas tho, sparked a reaction in me that i dont want you to think is tied to YOU as a person.
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Post by Tyual on Sept 5, 2006 21:27:12 GMT -5
EDIT: Okay I need to note a reference I said earlier and what I say here. That is, that the post a few above where I say I don't appreciate jokes about Jesus like Jesus Kills or Jesus was a stoner. And I don't appreciate them because I don't personally make jokes like that at other religions. However, they don't personally offend me and I can shrug them off, even if I don't like them. I hope that makes my stand a little clear with what I said below and above, lol.
"Im sorry. But if someone calls me a B*tch, I am NOT going to simply laugh it off and move on. It offends me. I am going to stand up against that. But if i do i am called emo. "
That's not being emo. That's being insulted. Being Emo is more when people get in the whole "oh poor pitiful me, woe be me, my life is so much harder than everyone's" thing and they're always like that, just because they have a bump or two in the road of life. That we all have, but they are overly passionate and not level-headed enough to deal with them and overcome them. They get stuck on them and just dwell on them and get morbidly depressed about them and stuff.
In an example: okay so if you look at my picture, you see I'm not a small guy. (i have more recent ones if anyone wants one BTW.) So say someone makes a fat joke at me. I'm being emo if I just keep dwelling on it and go on and on about oh how people call me fat and poor me for being overweight, and woe be me it's so hard being a big guy. That's being emo.
However, if I'm just like "Hey f*ck you, go do something better with your time than harass me." that's not emo, that's just being pissed because I was insulted and retaliating. That's not emo.
Your girlfriend/boyfriend breaks up with you, you cry and get upset for a day or two, that is not emo. Emo is dwelling on and on for like weeks or months, poor me he/she broke up with me, my life will never be the same, I can't move on. Versus, okay I'm upset and depressed for awhile because my heart got broken, now I suck it up and move on with my life.
that's the difference in emo or not emo. to clarify, so no, EMO IS NOT OKAY AS DEFINED ABOVE. It's harmful to your mental and physical health and well being to be emo as I defined it, and that's not good or okay.
1) I know it's one of the most sacreligious things you can do. It'd be like drawing Jesus with a harem or drunk. But ya know what, if I saw a picture of Jesus with a whiskey bottle and drunk off his rear, I'd probably laugh! Why? I can take a joke. So people need to get over it. So what, not everyone believes what I do, and if they want to make funny pictures about Jesus, well that's nice for them. They can answer to him for it when the time comes. Doesn't mean I'm going to draw them, but I'm not going to get all pissy because someone else does. I know that the cartoon was offensive to them, so don't preach it at me like I'm ignorant, but it's generally offensive to christians to depict Jesus as a drunkard or a stoner, and I see it done often enough, but it doesn't make me or other christians go into a massive temper tantrum that gets global attention!
2) Actually, it is funny to make fun of the extremist groups. It's like making fun of gangs in black society. Not all black people are gangsters. Not all muslims are terrorist. But if I see a comic about gangs and getting shot in the hood, I'm gonna laugh. I know that doesn't mean that all black people are gansters or all muslims are terrorist. The thing about those kinds of cartoons are that they are MEANT to be exaggerations and make fun of a society or idea or something. That's what political cartoons do. This is a generally understood thing, and they're usually disreguarded as bad humor. I've seen political cartoons about the christian faith, but i don't go into this big fit about it.
I mean it's like saying all catholic priests molest young boys. This isn't the case, but I don't find it offensive for them to make fun of christian priests when they make jokes about them. Granted, I'm not of the catholic denomination, but I am christian, as they are, and so the overall faith is the same. I mean, all islamics believe in the teachings of muhammud rather they're Sunni or Shi'ite. So us making fun of them as terrorist would be like them making fun of christian priests as child molestors. So what? It does happen. Muslims do bomb people, catholic priests do molest children. It happens, it's a part of life, laugh about it, move on. It's not the end of the world to have something like that poked fun at. That's the whole idea of a joke, is to poke fun at somethign to bring humor.
Why laugh it off? WHY DWELL ON IT? I find it much more beneficial to me to just shrug someone off and continue my day, and not let them bring me down, than to dwell on something they say and let it bring me down, bring my day down, my attitude down, etc. THAT'S WHY I say just laugh it off. I'm not saying it's right to make these jokes that they should have to shrug it off, but the fact is, in our world, IT HAPPENS, so we need to deal with it, not get all angsty and pissy about it. Because that doesn't help anyone. In your examples, with the boys making fun of you, did it help you any to be scared of a guy actually liking you? Did it help them in their relations with you? no! It didn't help anyone. And that's the problem, we get so wrapped up in ourselves and our ideals that we can't take a joke about them, because the fact is there are mean and cruel people who make those jokes, and thus we get all upset and bent out of shape, and it affects everyone negatively. So I just shrug it off, and don't let it affect me or other people negatively. I mean, it took me awhile to learn this one, because I'm bad to be very self concious, especially of how I look from getting fat jokes being little (I've lost a lot of weight since I was a kid in late elementary/jr high. So I don't get them a lot now.). But I don't let that affect me negatively or other people negatively. I finally realized that it was a problem with me, not other people, and so I took steps to make myself better. Instead of letting them bring me down, I used it to bring myself up. And that's just my view on it, stop letting people bring you down. And I don't deal well with people who get all self-centered and depressed over something like a fat joke, a tall joke, a face joke, or whatever. Maybe it's my mentality and when I forced myself to change and make myself posotive out of their negative.
I'm not saying be apathetic and don't care, I mean, I can be a pretty apathetic person, or come off that way. Even though I'm not, I can portray it, because it benefits me to do so. I'm just not a very emotionally responsive person if I can help it, I may feel the emotion, but I try to respond with my mind, not my emotions. It's more beneficial to me that way. So I guess sometimes that makes me seem cold and apathetic, but that's not the case at all. I have emotions, I just keep them in check. I mean sometimes I do loose my hold on them, and I snap on someone for something, but not often.
But no, I again state: standing up for yourself isn't being emo. getting like clinicially depressed and upset and dwellig on and on because some a-hole did something or said something mean to you is being emo.
As for christians, especially prodestants, I've said before and I will say again, that they are VERY hypocritical and thus why I don't truely claim any denomination. It's also why I'm so open about my belief and people making their own opinions about it. So you don't like it and make fun of it. So what. That's your right. It's not gonna hurt my feelings or change my views any. It's just gonna make me look at you and go "wow, now you look like a jackas*" And I suppose I've grown to expect most people to share the openness of views that I have, expecially from being exposed to people who don't share my views, but in reality that's not the case.
And yes, this issue ties to religion a lot, because often times the things being ridiculed or people are most harassed about, etc. are related to their religion or beliefs, and most people cannot tolerate an attack on their beliefs, they take it very personally. I think more so than the attack that people disagree with them. Some people have a very hard time grasping the concept that the whole world doesn't share the same views as their small community, and that revelation that is slapped on them when someone attacks their beliefs just throws them into hysteria. I'm blessed to be able to understand it, but I know so many people who aren't, just in my community, and I'm sure it's that way in many places.
I don't take them personally. I know that I'm the one stating ideas and thus the one you're responding to, but anyone could've said the same thing or similar things, which would've stimulated the same responce, so I don't take it as a personal attack, just that you disagree with me. Although after this one I hope that you can understand my ideas and viewpoint on things like that a bit better.
And can you take some time later to respond to my question, I'm really anxious to see what people have to say about that. (i think it'll be interesting because I expect to get a scientific look at it rather than a religious one, as I think everyone who really comes in here besides me is athiest.....well maybe not Lisi, I don't know what you are religiously, lol!)
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Post by 2bfoundwanting on Sept 6, 2006 22:55:15 GMT -5
So, a couple things. On emo, i guess its different here, because here you get called emo for all the things i mentioned, and it really bothers me. And listening to how you described your outlook on life... i wish i could shrug it off, i really do... but i cant, and i understand it when others cant. Its a real emotion, its a real strong emotion.
I guess this also just comes down to the person. I mean, its amazing that you are able to just move on, despite mean comments made to you. But Im not, and the reason the emo thing bothers me so much is because my family has a history of depression. Every single female on my mothers side of the famile (continuing up the line of mothers, not fathers) up to my great grandmother (we dont know much about older generations) have had issues. Great Grandmother.. scizophrenic (sp) Great Aunt - Suicide. Grandmother - several mental break downs and years and years of therapy. Mother - one nervous break down, and two times diagnosed as clinically depressed.
And was all of their depression from dwelling on something for too long? No. It was clinical. It was something that couldn't be helped that was "just chemicals" but still felt real and hurt and scared just as bad as any "real emotion". So thats why I am so sensitive to emo things. Because i know what real depresion is. And I am an emotional person. Thank god i am more under control than past generations, but I do react easily to things. And cruel joke really do bother me. But you see, i am unable to shake them off.. they bury deep into my mind and stay there.
So. I guess what this conversation made me realize is that its really a person to person thing.
Now, on the religion thing. I would like to state that you have changed my mind and that I am slightly off on my views. Because I was being hypocritical, which is something I hate more than any thing else. Its true, I will chuckle at jokes about preists or other main stream religions. So it isn't fair on my part to get so worked up about the issue with the muslims. Also, you are correct, political cartoons are exaggerated. Thats just how they work, they focus on one thing thats wrong and bring it under a microscope. Now this doesn't mean that Im still not upset about the issue, but you have made me realize that it isn't fair of me. That I am just upset because it isn't a religion that I am used to being made fun of. And thats something I need to work on.
I need to either laugh all of them off, or stand against all of them.
But while i have chuckled at various political or not cartoons about religions, I guess what i react to is the harasment. Because I just cant stand it. And the fact that people are harrassed so often for their beliefs really bothers me.
Okay. So moving to your other question.
I am not athiest, but I dont really belong to any one religion.... at all... so if you want me to go into that you can give me a shout in the Personal Philosophies or whatever thread.
Now, you said, how does it affect a person religiously? Or is it just something to help daily? I think it affects someone religiously. I think that religions can mesh and mix and that it is almost irresponsible to just stick strictly to one religion. So if you have certain buddhist beliefs, than i think that that isn't just a day to day thing, that should be worked into your beliefs and it becomes a part of your religion.
I dont know, to say that you only use them day to day sounds almost like your cheating. Like your borrowing and using something and then returning it when it comes to the end. I think if you practice a belief than you should stand by it religiously and incorporate it.
I dont know if I am making any sense, sorry. It kinda ties into my beliefs, which are kind of muddled, so Im sorry. I cant even really understand what I am trying to say... but I hope it somewhat answered your question.
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Post by Tyual on Sept 7, 2006 22:11:53 GMT -5
Hmm yeah it makes sense, but the thing is, I think you're understanding that I'm like borrowing religious principals, not like ways of life.
One particualr example, I'll use the buddhist technique I try to use, is the Eightfold Fence. It's an idea that by having everything organized in your mind into "compartments" that you can keep your thoughts more orderly and open the knowledge/questions/etc like a file in a filing cabinet, aka extract it from the compartment as you need it.
So thus, it's not exactly a religious principal. However, it could be applied religiously, in the sense of not letting the little, stressful day-to-day things interfere with your religion and being true to your beliefs and such. But it can also be used in a broader sense as a method of keeping yourself organized and maintain a lower level of stress.
And they also have their main principles of things they strive to obtain, but if you look at them, they are general guidelines to living a good and productive life. They could apply to anyone, not strictly a buddhist person.
Also, in it's beginnings Buddhism was a way of life for better living taught by a guy called Buddha, it was later that people thought he was a god sent to earth or something, it didn't start out that way, and I take buddhism in it's original form, as a way of living, not a form of worship.
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Post by seffy on Oct 16, 2006 4:11:32 GMT -5
*Continued from the Philosophy thread* Seffy don't state that about evolution as fact unless you have proof. Which you don't, otherwise the arguement about it still wouldn't be going on to this day. Society created the ideals of God or gods? No. Because that's been around since before society as we call it, like I said earlier, when they were hunter gatherers; before they started to group together in agriculture and make a society/civilzation. So the idea was already there, which means that it was not an idea created by society. Now RELIGION, it to a degree was affected by society, yes. Because there are many different religions and many different ways to worship the same thing, or different things. However, the base idea behind them, the worship of and faith in a higher power, was there before societies began to develop. Religion is nothing more than a word used to describe our choice of preferences in how we worship, and the name of the god(s) we worship. The base idea is the same. And that idea was not created by society. History. So saying the underlying idea that a religion is the "true" religion is really incorrect. Many people will admit the fact that there is an uncertainty factor that none of us can know about until we die which means that we could infact be wrong. Those of us who are not arrogant and egotistical at least. Those of us who will admit the possibility of our faults. The underlying idea is the worship of and faith in a higher power(s). Early on yes, our knowledge was limited, but guess what, it still is today. To say that they blamed natural events on supernatural things, yeah sure, but I'm sure things happened even then that they -KNEW- should not have been possible. When someone survives a wreck that every bit of science and knowledge and technology we have says they shouldn't have, that defies what we -know-, and so rather you acredit it to God or something else, fact is we still don't know what caused it, and those of us who have faith, yes most likely we'll say it was the grace of God or the blessing of Allah or whatever that caused it to happen. What do you people with no faith acredit it to? Sheer luck? Also, look at those early societies. Their culture was I'd guess.....95%? based on their religious laws. Many socities are that way today. So how does society create religion? It would go to say that religion was created off of theirs laws, but it was the other way around. Religion affects society much more than society affects religion. To say it doesn't affect it at all would be wrong, but to say it created and primarially affects it? I'd say no. So yeah, we can't explain everything. We do not know our purpose in the Universe. It's quite impossible for us to understand our entire purpose in the vast universe with only the advancements in technology and knowledge we have. Just not possible to FULLY understand it. Have an idea, a hunch? Sure. be 100% without question positive? No. So to say we have no need of the supernatural, if that's what you choose to call God, I'd disagree. Even going on your idea that society created it, there are still a lot of things we can't explain even with all the advancements we have in the world today, so what are you going to blame those things on? Obviously, the supernatural. Even with your idea, there is still a need for it. Religion on the decline isn't much of a big deal. Religion is just how you choose to worship as I've said countless times, and so if everyone wants to worship in their own way, then they don't go to church, they may have the same basic ideals, but slight differences, and not go to church. So to say church attendance doesn't accurately reflect the number of people with faith and belief in God. I know quite a number of people who don't go to church frequently who believe in God, and strongly. My parents being some of them, as well as a number of the students I go to school with. And I live in the Bible Belt where going to church every Sunday and Wednesday is a big deal for a lot of people, and even knowing the large number of people I do who don't attend regularly, the number of people I know who have a faith in the higher power goes futher even into those who do not attend a church regularly. So even if you said that here, it wouldn't accurately reflect much. The proof of Evolution is there for anyone to see, in the fossil records and genetic samples. The reason the debate is still ongoing is because religion refuses to see what is right before their eyes. As proof of this, it was the 20th century before the church recognised that the Earth 'wasn't' the center of the Universe. The 20th century? I mean, come on. Nicolaus Copernicus knew that in the 16th century, it took the church 400 years to catch up? No. They refused to acknowledge it because it didn't agree with their philosophy of an all-powerful god who created everything and loved Man above all others. If they refused to acknowledge that, what else do they refuse to acknowledge for the sake of their philosophy? So has fear of the dark, but that can still be found. And why shouldn't the Hunter/Gatherer way of life be called a society? Didn't they live together in groups? Didn't they work together to ensure the survival of themselves as a group? Just because they weren't a society by modern standards doesn't mean they weren't a society. They had order and structure. The strongest were the leaders. Those who were able went out to hunt for food and brought it back for the tribe. The women cared for the young and the men, when the young were old enough, trained them to hunt for themselves. The old who couldn't hunt for themselves were provided for. Sounds like a civilisation to me. They were also primatives with no understanding of the world around them. To explain all the occurances that happened, the storms, the earthquakes, whatever, they came up with the supernatural to explain it. Spirits, Gods, call it what you will. They were a way for people with no understanding to explain what was happening around them. That is how religion started and that is why, I believe, religion and god were created by Man, not vice versa. Today, we know why these things happen. We know what a storm is, what an earthquake is, why droughts happen. We also know they have nothing to do with any godly displeasure. I disagree, but only to a certain degree. The worship of a higher power was there with the Primatives. It was only as the Human race developed into the modern civilisation, and developed language as a means of communication, that Humans actually gave their deities names. But even then, as one society fell to an invader, so their god also fell to the invading society's god. All these differant societys believed as devoutly as modern society, yet their gods are now non-existant. Why? Quetzlecoatl must be seriously p**sed by now with no-one sacrificing things to him anymore. What will happen in 500 years time, when someone has come up with yet another religion and the Christian religion is as dead as the Aztec one? Will the Christian god be sitting down next to Quetzlcoatl, reminiscing about the old days? No, I'm not trying to mock you, or your beliefs. This is an example of why I think religion and gods are a man-made ideal. Men create these religions, adhere to them and then someone much stronger invades and the home religion goes out the window. Where are Zeus and Hera now? Jupiter and Venus? What about Odin and Thor? All deities of once powerful societies, now only remembered in legend. With this in mind, how can you possibly say that religion isn't man made? This is why, I feel, religion still survives today. For me, religion still exists because of Man's greatest fear, that once he dies, that's it. People are terrified of death, of the end of their life and their existence. So, to make the inevitable end bearable, they create the existence of life here-after in the form of heaven. Now, with paradise and a fluffy cloud waiting for them, the idea of death isn't so frightening anymore. Now they can go to the grave safe in the knowledge that the cold Earth isn't their final destination. It's just another way of explaining, and comforting themselves over, something that they don't fully understand. For me, the only after life is how people remember you. I'm resolved to that and quite happy with it. Why not? In his youth, Adolf Hitler fought in WW1 and survived. Are you saying the survival of that monster was a part of god's great plan? Random happenings are a part of Science. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle states that anything that can happen, will happen eventually. Einstein's Law Of Probabillity has pretty much the same fundamentals. Throw enough people out of a moving aircraft without a parachute and, eventually, one will survive the fall. So yes, luck does play a part. Just because it happens to one person and not to a thousand others doesn't mean that god was watching out for that one particular person. It just means that today was his lucky day. Without society, religion is nothing. I proved this when I spoke about the Aztecs, the Vikings and the Ancient Greeks and Romans. If this weren't the case, we'd still be worshipping all the ancient gods, and I mean 'all' of them. Again, you are correct to a certain degree. Society and religious laws do go hand in hand. Thou shalt not covet another mans possessions, thou shalt not kill. Burglary gets five years in jail, murder gets twenty five. Whether society law affects religious law and vice versa is open to conjecture. However, it's safe to say, thanks to Historical record, that in the days before Christianity and Islam, if someone murdered someone else, they usually paid the price for it (and back in those days, life usually meant 'life'). So it's safe to say that society law existed long before modern religious law. Whether or not ancient law and ancient religious law went hand in hand, I couldn't honestly say with any certainty. Agreed, wholeheartedly. The only thing I can do is make an educated guess from the evidance that's put before me. I think that's all anyone can do. Not really. Especially when that belief in the supernatural leads to war. Yes, there is a lot left to explain. But that's not to say we'll never have an explanation for it. It just means that we haven't found the explanation yet. This point I will concede. The only thing I can quote is the official statement, by the Church (and I'm not even sure which Church it was that said it), that Congregational figures were declining. It's just that, when I was a kid (and I'm going back some 30-odd years), there were things like sunday school, and worshippers went to church on a sunday. Now it's all changed. There are hardly any sunday schools anymore and, as you say, people don't always go to church anymore. It doesn't mean people don't believe, granted. For all I know they may leave their worship to just saying Grace at the dinner table, I don't know. I guess the church will just have to move with the times as it were.
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Post by Tyual on Oct 16, 2006 9:29:33 GMT -5
That'd be the catholic church in general, which pretty much screws up existance in my eyes. Sadly, I have to say that they are of my religion, but in a different way and set of ideals. The church is very corrupt and power hungry, so I put little emphasis on them. Unfortunately they are a large organization with much power and generally negatively reflect Christianity in general.
As for the society, that's more of an ideals thing and what you consider society. I do not consider them civilized, and there for not a society. I guess that part of the discussion falls back into the philosophy thread.
Although the things they acredited to Godly displeasure may now be understood, that doesn't mean that God didn't make them. It just means they work on their own, after his creation, as humans do. (by my beliefs) Thus, it could still be the result of God's creation without it having to do with his pleasure or displeasure.
I need to do some looking up on this, but I think a lot of the very early religions were very much the same, with the exception of what they called their god. Moreso even than the ones of today, because from what I know the customs and rituals and stuff were very much the same. Also, the invader may have taken over primarially, but I'm sure there were still those who secretly kept their religion until the day they died, much as would happen today.
Like I said, I need to do some looking on this, but if I'm right, their extremely high level of similarity helped with this a lot.
And.....pretty sure I'm in class and the bell is about to ring so I'll finish this later.
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Post by Tyual on Oct 16, 2006 21:23:29 GMT -5
okay home and continuing. May be the case for some people, certainly not for me. I don't fear death at all. If it happens, it happens. And I know a few people the same way. Not to say that we like the idea of dying, we rather enjoy our lives and like to live them, but if we die, that's just the way it goes. We accept that death is a part of reality. Also fluffy clouds and stuff? Then why do they preach so hard about Hell? Why is hell even included if the idea is to make death comfortable. Because look at the world, the life most people live is a life with a one way ticket to Hell. So that's not as inviting as your white fluffy clouds. It doesn't scare anyone into living the right life, although it may have once upon a time, but not now, not anyone I know at least. I'll be honest, I don't believe in luck. Coincidence? Sure. Luck? No. So yeah, even scientifically looking at it and in the sense of probability, then sure I guess one in every few thousand has to survive that fall from the airplane. I'll give you that. But looking at the laws of science, they say that your body should shatter and be crushed and you should die when you hit the ground. Not necessarially instantly or without pain, but die none the less. So I guess that point just depends on your personal belief in luck or not. For me, luck doesn't exist. If it does, then all mine is bad =P I'll concede this. Religion is useless without society, or mass gatherings of religion is at least. And a large part of most religions is fellowship. So yes, it does need society to a degree. Religion is based to function through a society. Faith and belief are not though. That is an individual thing, and sometimes I guess I should be more clear on religions vs personal faith/beliefs. The old socities laws did exist far before our own modern religious laws, however the base ideas of theres were pretty similar to ours. Don't kill, don't steal, don't covet another man's belongings. (Helen of Troy? Don't kill another man's servant, because that cuts his production in the fields and such, etc.) So those rules were ones that not only helped them to be a successful and orderly society, but also co-existed with religious beliefs. I won't act like Christianity wasn't highly affected by previous religions in a lot of things. However, the faith and belief in God wasn't, just the way the religion is followed and such. And even still, today there are many denominations of Christianity, because of disagreeances in how people should worship and such and interpretation of the Bible. There's even that in Judism. So society has affected it, and the old religions, especially to make conversion easier and more likable for people of other religions. (Actually not a bad idea in theory for recruitment purpopses and trying to spread the faith, but overall I disagree with it.) Oh I agree, I'm sure we can explain most everything with science eventually, but for me, that just means we explain and find a way to understand how the creations of God work. That's what it means for me. It in no way disproves that God make those things and made them function the way they do. My view on it at least. Okay, I -have- to take a shot at a lot of people with this one: Televangeslist TV Church. I hate it, but hey, it works for a lot of people now I guess. More convenient for them. Not my style. But a growing trend.
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Post by moogman on Nov 1, 2006 6:46:41 GMT -5
Hahahah those shows have me in stitches "PRAISE THE LORD" and all that, its quite funny. to me its kind og a publicity money making stint, and unfortunatley i see those tings more like cults than religions.
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Post by Tyual on Nov 1, 2006 13:32:20 GMT -5
"kind of a publicity money making stint, and unfortunatley i see those tings more like cults than religions. "
yeah I don't like the things on TV either, they really give people a bad image of what it really means to be Christian.
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