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Post by Tyual on Jul 3, 2006 16:12:41 GMT -5
Alright so you want to debate religion. Christianity vs Atheist. Buddhism vs Hinduism. Islam vs Christianity. Such and so forth.
Whatever beef you have with a religion, this is the place to deck it out.
Just remember, we have to keep it clean here folks!
Got it? *waves Zapping Wand of Death* .....Yeah, I thought so.
~ Ty, The Muffin Man ~
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Post by seffy on Jul 3, 2006 17:25:34 GMT -5
Before we begin, I would like to make my position perfectly clear. I do not believe in, nor do I hold with, any form of religion or divine entity. I do not believe I have the right to expect anyone to agree with my views, nor do I expect to be able to tell anyone what to think or to believe. By the same token, I don't expect to be told the same by anyone else. I choose to respect what other people believe in and adhere too as long as they respect me in a like manner. I ask that you all remember what I've said here when the debate hots up as, in my experience, it usually tends to do.
So, a simple question to begin with. Why do people believe so passionately in something that they can't see, can't feel, can't touch? In fact, how can you believe in something when there is absolutely nothing to say that there is anything there in the first place?
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Post by Tyual on Jul 3, 2006 23:44:18 GMT -5
Because you have faith in it. The same way you have faith that when you breathe your lungs will take in air. You can't see feel (with the exception of breezes) or touch air either. But we have faith that it exists. So what if it wasn't air? It was some other substance? Call it what you will, it still exists and is what we breathe constantly.
Same principle with belief and faith in religion. Call it what you will, but we all (religious people) have that faith that there is a higher power out there above ourself. The same way I believe that I'll get air the next time I take a breath.
I ask this though: How can you look at how great the natural beauty of the world is, the expanse o the universe, depth of the sea, all these great things, and not believe that something had a hand in it's creation? I mean, I personally think it's foolish to actually accept the concept that something as unlikely as the Big Bang happened, or more specifically happened without something setting it in motion (the higher power, whatever you choose to call your God.) It seems irrational that something so great can be just a conincident.(spelling).
Edit to note: I'm the same way as you Seffy, I don't tell people what to believe, but I don't want them to tell me what to believe. (Thus, you can imagine that although I have my religion, I do have issues with churches sending missionaries to push Christianity on others. Missionaries are good for spreading the word of the religion, but in this day and age, most everyone knows about Christianity or enough to study it if they wish. I think going out and pushing it on them is wrong when they now have access to it at a whim. Missionaries were useful in the old days when we didn't have technology and it wasn't a widespread religion.)
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Post by moogman on Jul 4, 2006 1:51:57 GMT -5
My problem well not so much problem is suppose because i dont paticuly care but a few things i dont get is how people can readily accept some of the stories in religiong, like the walk on water stuff, the turning water to wine? you scientifically unsound stories. oooh and the noahs Arc thats a great one since science says that any inbreeding would result in the death of a species very few generations after it began, therefore if noahs arc story is true how the heck did we manage to inbreed to this point? Adam and Eve again totaly argues against science on this one. I personally beleive the bible was written by high priests of sorts, it was a clever way to control the masses at the time, then a guy came laong who was a political genious, lets call him Jesus, great speaker, talk for the people, gained a massive following and became a marter, his story became so great that he became a immortal, so much so that people believed he was immortal and then choose to ignore all other texts that argues otherwise. So in plain my beleives of jesus and God are simple Good book Great Guy, good story, but the church are the wrong people to be telling it, if the church is so great and forgiving and understanding, why do they feel the need to send missionaries to spread the word of there religiong? i have no problem with peeps believing in god, many of my family do and it seems to give them great comfort but i just dont personally have the ability to understand it??? if that makes sense.
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Post by seffy on Jul 4, 2006 4:46:40 GMT -5
True, you can't see the air around you. You can feel it. You feel it every time you breathe, every time the wind blows, every time you leve your house in winter (the cold). In concentrated form it may even have smell and you can hear it as rushes past you and blows through the trees. You also know it's there because, as you rightly said, you would be dead if it wasn't there. The presence of air all around you isn't faith, it's a physical reality. It's a certainty. Indeed, if the air was suddenly taken away, the knowledge that it had gone would be the last thing you ever knew. However, reading what you said Ty, it sounds as though if the air was taken away from you, your faith in that air being there would sustain you and keep you alive, just as your faith in your religion does.
You mentioned the Big Bang. If you go to places such as The Royal Astronomical Society, the European Space Agengy (ESA) or NASA, you would be able to see their work concerning all the differant galaxies in the known Universe. You would be able to see how we know, thanks to the Doppler Effect, that they are moving away from us at incredible speeds. You would also be able to see, if you reverse their trajectory that they would all come back to roughly a single point (I say roughly because variants are caused by things such as collisions and the interferance of Gravity. Yes, even Galaxies can be influenced by gravity). Yes, the Big Bang is a theory, but it is a viable theory that can be laid out on paper and shown to work. It has evidance to say that it is both possible and even likely to have happened. The CERN Institute in Switzerland have the largest particle accelerator in the world, some 42 miles long I believe. In that accelerator, scientist can cause two particles to collide and cause, what you might call, a mini big bang. They can actually re-create the Big Bang event but at a much smaller scale and study it's effects. By studying such experimants in other particle accelerators and comparing them to the universe, they have found certain correlations, enough to prove that the Big Bang theory is deffinately viable. You can't touch it, you can't smell it, but you can see the Big Bang and you can feel it's effects.
The world, and the universe, around us is indeed full of beauty and awe-inspiring wonder. But it is also a place of danger and horror. How can anyone truly believe that their god loves them when they see all the attrocities that happen in the world, when they see all the suffering and misery that happens? How could any god allow it to continue when a lot of that suffering and misery and horror happens because of his own splintered religion? How many people have died over the centuries because of religious hate and bigotry? How many people were tortured to death as heretics by the Inquisition, acting on orders of the Church? How many people still die today because Christians and Muslims still worship the same, all peaceful and all loving, god? Away from Human causes, how many people die through disease, through natural disasters, even through accidents such as falling off a cliff. All these events cause suffering, suffering that, surely, an all loving and all caring god would prevent, especially one that is omnipotent and omnipresent. Unless, of course, such a god didn't exist?
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Post by Tyual on Jul 4, 2006 7:59:23 GMT -5
Moog first:
As I've read Gensis and understand it, it says that Adam and Eve were the first two, and the two who were intended to be perfect for God. I do not recall anywhere it saying that God did not create other humans besides them? I've thought of this and realized that it would mean there could be only 2 main haircolors, and things in between. We have what, about 4 common hair colors? Same thing with eye color and such. So no, I don't think that it was just those two.
Also, walking on water and water to wine: We believe that Jesus was not just another human being. We believe that he had the powers of God. Therein, we believe he could do those things thanks to God and through God's power. Not by his own power or mortal means.
Can't tell you a lot for the Arc story, because I haven't studied into it much, aside from hearing the story.
As for missionaries, their goal is supposed to be to spread the word and tell people about Jesus. Now it's become a push-shove religious propoganda thing that I don't much care for. I like to do missions work where we go help people and stuff, but not the kind that people do where they're pushing God onto people.
Seffy:
Not saying that faith in air would keep me alive. Personally, I don't consider a breeze feeling air. How do you know it's air? What proves to you that it's air? Because a few scientists say it's air? Also, I don't think cold weather counts as feeling the air.
I know about CERN and the particle accelerator, at least that they have the best one in the world. Same about gravity being able to affect Galaxies, please don't talk to me like I'm an idiot.
I think you mistook what I said. I wasn't saying the Big Bang wasn't possible. I'm saying I don't believe it's possible by mere coincidence that it just happened. Sure, it could've, but I believe that if it did, a higher power had a hand in it. I think something had to cause it to happen.
You mentioned the known universe: that just reminds me that there is so much of it that we don't know, and when we do learn about them, I wonder how much it'll change about our theories and such....
True, there are a lot of bad things in the world, but guess what: They're all man made. God didn't tell Muhammed or whatever Arab to go blow up Jonnyboy because he's a Christian and then for Danny to go kill Muhammed for killing Jonnyboy. People do that. Not God. People who take their own religious zeal into fanaticism are fools anyhow. And blaming the acts of man on God is just as bad. God gave us the freedom to make choices, and when the choices we make are bad, you see the results. So why should God have to step in and play peace-keeper everytime we misuse the gift he gave us? He's letting us learn our own lessons. It's like letting your kid ride a bike. You know they might fall and hurt themselves, but you let them ride and learn anyways.
As for disease, I've heard many people try to blame that on "God's punishment" with things such as AIDS and the Black Plague. I say bah to that. The plague was a result of uncleanliness in that age mostly, a few other things, but mostly because the people of that time were unclean. Not sure about AIDS honestly. However, I think most of them can be attributed to man as well. Things that happen in nature, when infected by the things created by man, mutate to become something else. This something else would be the diseases. That's what I think causes a lot of it anyhow. There are some things that just exist in nature that are dangerous to people, but if our bodies work properly, and we take care of them, then it should protect itself against those anyhow.
So are you an unexisting father when you let your kids ride a bike, or drive a car, even though they might crash and hurt themselves? And are you an unexisting father when they innevitably do have a crash? No more so than God is an unexisting God. You have the power to stop your kids from riding a bike or driving the same as he has the power to stop some of the things you said, but does that mean it happens? No.
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Post by moogman on Jul 4, 2006 8:35:34 GMT -5
but sureley if seffy had the power to be omnitpetent (SP?) and could see everything going on and his son daughter mother brother cousin whatever was about to have a car crash and he could see it like God sureley can then wouldnt and shouldnt he stop it from happening? i mean if god is real and he sits up there on his cloud lol or whatever and he watches what happens to some of the people in this world alot of wich is out of there hands (3rd world countries) then isnt he a bit sick?
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Post by Tyual on Jul 4, 2006 17:28:59 GMT -5
Would he? What if he knew they would come out of it okay and gain something from it? If he knew that the person would respect their life more, or be more thankful for what they have, then would he? I wouldn't.
As for 3rd wolrd countries, they receive aid all the time. In unreal amounts. There is corruption in the systems and people that the money isn't fully going to help them, and thats why they remain third world countries. If all the trillions that are poured into them are used to help those countries, they would be far less in number by now. So again, that's not God's doing, that's corruption of man.
Why should he have to clean up our mistakes and stop us from having to deal with the consequences? When you made mistakes as a kid, didn't you have to face the consequences? Well as a people in a whole, it's the same way. We have to face the consequences of our ways. God shouldn't have to fix all our mistakes for us.
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Post by 2bfoundwanting on Jul 4, 2006 23:59:15 GMT -5
But thats just your belief. You think that God is the kind of being that puts things into motion, doesn't have his hand in every single affair.
What about the Christain God that is supposed to be all knowing, all powerfull, all good and they pray to him/it/her for everything from a passing grade on an exam to world peace. To them God does have to clean up after them. And i think the question asked before about isn't he a little sick... If he was all good than god wouldn't want there to be any suffering, no matter if it was the corruption of mans fault or not. And are you forgetting that he supposedly created us in his image? and if he is all knowing wouldn't he know that we would turn to corruption? in that case why would he make us so succeptable to it?
I mean, i dont really believe that there is a god to begin with, but if there were... what about all that. And finally, if there is a god such as is in the bible... why would he allow there to be such freedom of thought so that there are millions upon millions of people that simply because they aren't baptized, despite if they are essentially good or not, dont get to go to heaven?
Personally, I think that much of organized religion is created by man. The bible was written by man, that is a fact. The idea of hell fire cuss wordation was created after the religion.. it just seems that there is too much corruption in religion for it to be created by god
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Post by Tyual on Jul 5, 2006 0:36:04 GMT -5
Lisi, I am a Christian. It's the same God. What you're talking about is a misconception. And a big one. We pray for things such as a good grade on the test, not because we think God is going to be in something so trivial, but because there's something about it that relieves us psychologically. It's more of a metaphoric thing than being seriously taken, usually.
The ones who think God has to clean up after everything they do, have a very bad concept of the religion they claim to follow. Probably, they've just heard the fanatical and illogical teachings in Sunday School without taking the time to think about it themselves.
No one said God is this peace loving hippie who wants everything to be bright and cheery. I can't remember anywhere in the Bible ever seeing anything saying that.
He made man in his image, but man corrupted that image when he took the fruit of knowledge. It then knew right and wrong as God, where it (the species of man) didn't before. Therein, man by making the choice to listen to Satan rather than God, condemned himself to all the things. God gave us the ability to make choices because we are intended to have a relationship with him, not to perfectly worship as the angels. With the ability to make choices, we gained the ability to make wrong choices, and when we did that, we can see the results.
This assuming you look at it from a Christian perspective.
Also, people don't get denied heaven based on baptism. Baptism is actually just a symbolic representation saying that you're turning over a new page in life, and you're going to try and live your life in a religious way. Not a "get baptised or go to hell" thing. Admittance to Heaven by the Bible is supposed to be based on being saved, which is the whole routine you hear of accepting Jesus as your personal lord and savior and such. I'm sure you've all heard the thing, I'm not going into it.
And that's supposed to be the job of missionaries, Lisi, to bring those people to Christ so that they will be saved and go to Heaven. However, I think that they've gone astray from their purpose. They try to force it on people now rather than welcoming those who want to learn and leaving those who don't to their own ways. Information on religion is avaliable at fingertips in the modern world, and so the missionary work of old is really unnnecessary. The kind of missions work needed now is to clear up misconceptions about the religion and to help people. However, while it's done by fanatical zealot fools, that won't happen. And unfortunately, that's generally what's in the missions department.
Much of organized religion is created by man. The new testament was written by man, that is a fact. There is no proof saying where the old testament originated. However, if you believe what they tell you in Sunday School then God told his words to the priests who wrote down what he told them to in order to compile the old testament. Alternatively, I've heard that it just came straight from God to man. Which I doubt.
There is corruption in religion, but it has been done by man. God did not corrupt his own religion. The so called followers did. Again, the result of free will gone bad.
Hell as a profane word came from religion obviously, because religion is what refers to it as hell anyhow. Other religions and beliefs have different views and ideas about what hell is. It's supposed to be such a vile and evil place that it's.....filthy, is the best word I can think of right now. It's a filthy topic, or supposedly. Thus, you can probably see how over time it grew to be a curse word, as it is a topic that is looked down upon.
Personally, I think the context it's used in determines if it's profane or not. But that's true of many words. I can say that something is cuss worded and mean it in a religious sense but the base word, if I say d*** it, then I'm being profane. It's all about context. So virtually any word could be turned into a curseword depending on how its used.
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Post by 2bfoundwanting on Jul 5, 2006 1:58:33 GMT -5
I would have to say that you completely proved me wrong on that one. As much as I hate to be wrong, because I really really do hate to be wrong, you have shown me many holes in my argument and I am actually very glad that I got this chance to talk to you. I think I probably got somewhat full of myself in my thinking because I have yet to come across someone who can thoughtfully explain to me such things. Your point about knowledge corrupting is one i didn't really think of before but makes perfect sense.
And again, as I told you before, the problem I have is that my ideas are always changing. So sometimes I find myself believing in God and the word of the bible, but at other times I am completely sceptical about it.
I still do not really agree with organized religion because I do believe there is too much possibility for people to be led astray and become corrupt.. but I do not deny the wonderfulness of a good community with in a church. I work at the church i was baptized in, in the childrens nursery, and while I dont go to the service or partake in any of the activities, it is still really nice to have the community and to know my priest.
I also wonder at this psychological need you spoke about. Because I too find myself praying to God about trivial things almost automatically. And I wonder about whether God was something that we made up because our minds cant quite function without it. Because we need to think there is something bigger that cares for us. But again, at other times i do believe there is something out there.
I also still believe that you are special in your belief. There may be many others out there that are just as thoughtfull about religion as you, but there are many more that have 'gone astray' or however you wish to put it that believe in religion in a way i dont quite understand or agree with.
Im glad that I came into this thread because I think it will help clear up some misconceptions I had and while it will be embarassing for me, I hope you dont judge me to harshly on it. Its probably also not a good idea for me to be writing all this when I am this tired, because Im not quite sure of what Im typing. But oh well.
And finally, it is really really weird for me when you use my name so often. Firstly, on sites like this I am always called 2b or 2bfoundwanting, and secondly, people rarely call me by my name in person. I always start when someone weaves my name into conversations. Not that its bad, or that I am asking you to stop... Im sure once I get used to it, it will be fine, but because I am so unused to it I almost feel like its being used as a tool to reprimand me. Sorry. random comment on my part...
anyway. going to bed now.
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Post by moogman on Jul 5, 2006 4:21:49 GMT -5
back to ur answer about would seffy do anything about it if he knew his son daughter sister brother or whatever would come out of it with some kind of benefit, as in they learnt from the experienece would he do it? then no he probably wouldnt do anything but sureley if he knew that person was going to die as in he is "all knowing" then he would stop it from occuring?
Explain to me how God can let a child be hit by a car and die when the person behind the car is drunk? what exactly is god trying to teach us by taking that childs life?
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Post by Tyual on Jul 5, 2006 15:40:00 GMT -5
2b: Lol sorry 2b, I'll just call you 2b instead =P my bad, didn't mean to like make you uncomfortable with it. As for my ideas, they are just that, my ideas. Doesn't make them right, just makes them one way of looking at things.
The question you bring up about God being created as man's psychological need for a higher powe is still the most debated question I've ever heard. And there is no way of answering it or knowing for sure, until the day we die. It's one of those questions you can only answer by your personal beliefs and find out if you believed correctly or not when you die.
Moog: And it's because you're focusing on just that child dying. Maybe there was a higher purpose you can't see that comes out of the child's death. Maybe one child dying brings that drunk to change his life, and when he does, he brings 20 people around him to change theirs, and them 10 people more, such and so on. There may be a higher purpose to one event than just the obivous "oh the baby died that's so sad, how could God let that happen?"
We are not all seeing, and therein we cannot see the greater scheme of things. God can. Therein, by only seeing the first layer of things that happen, we limit ourselves and that is why it is so easy for people to disbelieve in God. They see the bad things without seeing the fullness of what happens. Well, not so much without seeing, but without understanding that there is more that can come out of it than a child dying.
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Post by 2bfoundwanting on Jul 5, 2006 16:26:23 GMT -5
Ive got a question... why do so many people put so much faith in the bible when it was written by ordinary people, not even the desciples that it is named after?
Even when I have been feeling my most devout and closest to really believing in God... Ive never understood how people can take the Bible so literally. And this is really a genuine question, not an attack.
And about Tragedy... I once watched this movie where this little girl gets to meet God, or rather he talks to her in the body of an old man, and she asks why God allows there to be situations that make people so sad. And the answer was something that I have held forever. Imagine if there was no sadness, no tragedy, no anger, no loss. There would be no growth there would be no progress there would be no change. And if there was no sadness, what would you have to compare happiness to? You would take everything in life for granted and life would be boring. Now thats not to say that a hundred people should die in an earthquake so that life is not boring. But I mean, if you look at it that way... what doesn't kill you really does make you stronger. If there was no tragedy, there would be no need to change or move forward in life. Everything would be stagnant, and human beings dont work that way. Whenever things are to complacent (ie the 50s... move example "Rebel Without A Cause") We find the need to rebel and change. We cant deal with things being seemingly perfect.
So no, a child should not have to die. A parent should not have to burry their son or daughter, but Ty is right in that there very well could be some bigger purpose served. Tragedy is a necessity just as much as Joy is. At least, thats what I believe
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Post by seffy on Jul 5, 2006 18:06:44 GMT -5
Then you would agree with war? You would say the what Hitler did was alright because it served a higher purpose? What possible purpose could be behind the destruction of so many lives in so gruesome a way? Would a benevolant God really allow such a slaughter and, if he did, could he really be called benevolant?
You've mentioned the Bible and said that it is a book that was written by man. That's exactly what it is, a book that was written by men. Ty, you said it was the words of god handed down to these men. But who told you that? The simple answer is, those men who wrote the Bible. Yes, your Religious Leaders say it was the word of God and I have no doubt they also believe it. But, at the end of the day, even they are taking the word of those same people who wrote the bible. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not condemning these people. If my limited understanding of the bible is correct, the messages it contains are designed to teach people how to live good and wholesome lives, which no one could say was a bad thing. But those messages are still the views of certain individuals who have written down their sections according to their own beliefs. In a previous, rather hotly debated, discussion of the Bible, I asked the question 'JRR Tolkien wrote The Lord Of The Rings, does this mean that I have to believe in six foot Elves?' In hind-sight, I really shouldn't have asked the question the way I did. However, the idea behind the question, to me, is right. If I write down some stories or parables (I hope that's the right word to use here) and hide them away for 500 years. Would they form a new religion when they are eventually re-discovered? No one can say, but the chances are equally for and against. I believe the Bible was written over some 1600 years? Wouldn't that make my 500 year scenario lean more towards the 'for'? Yet my words would have come from no Higher Being, they would simply be my words.
On a personal note. I would like to offer an apology to Ty. In a previous post, I made a comment about galaxies being affected by gravity. The comment was made more as a humourous comment than for any point being made. However, after reading it again, I can see why Ty would think I was being condescending. I have the utmost respect for your views, your beliefs and deffinately for your skills as a Debater Ty, the last thing I want to do is insult you or attempt to make you look or feel inferior. I apologise for making that comment and for making you feel the way I did. It was my mistake and one that I will try not to make again.
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Post by 2bfoundwanting on Jul 5, 2006 18:44:54 GMT -5
I certainly do NOT agree with war, or what Hitler did. But what is the purpose of your question? Yes it is regrettable and terrible and awful and a tragedy what happened to those poor poor people. But who are you to say it didn't serve a higher purpose? Just because YOU cant see it. Can you even fathom how different our reality would be today if World War II hadn't happened? How do you know that if it hadn't happened things wouldn't be ten times worse for ten times more people? You dont! By the same token, things could be ten times better, but the reality is that we dont know and have no right pretending to.
It is my extremely strong belief that regret and talk of the past as having no purpose or whatever is wrong. Everything that has ever happened has resulted in what is happening today. Every action I have taken led me to the spot I am today. And I like my life, I am happy where I am. I regret absolutely nothing and I think the same should be said for history. It should be something that is learned from, emulated or avoided, studied and understood. But never regreted.
World War II and Hitler was a terrible tragedy, but its existence is not proof by any means that there is no God. And as much as I waver in wether or not I believe in God (and in case anyone is wondering today I am leaning towards yes, while yesterday it was no) I have always understood that point. Tragedy is not a reason for the non existence of God just as Happiness is also not a reason FOR his/her/its existence.
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Post by Tyual on Jul 5, 2006 23:20:28 GMT -5
Lisi, I like your way of describing the neccessity of tragedy.
I guess the best way for me to say it is: How do you understand seeing light without also understanding the concept of darkness? There are absolutes and everything in the middle. We understand the absoultes, but we live in the middle and so we have to look across the broad view to try and see all the parts of the things in between those absoultes.
As for the Bible: Much of it is meant to be metaphorical or stories told to explain a point (Jesus taught with fables that held a moral point usually.) Although it's often taken a lot broader than it is. Like you get one verse that says one thing, and fanatics try to bend it to say 20 things to meet their point of view. And that kind of thing creats bad misconceptions and really ticks me off. But yeah, it's generally a metaphoric thing. The stories of Jesus's miracles are the ones I take most literally, otherwise I take it more metaphorically.
Seffy: I agree with war for certain causes. There are times when no doubt, diplomacy is just a joke and doesn't work. Sometimes you have to use "aggresive negotiatons." Hitler, although he was clinically insane without doubt, was also a political and economical genious. We also learned a lot during World War II which advanced the world. We made a big public deal about genocides, and it hasn't happened again in large amounts since then. There's the whole Sudan thing, but I don't know a lot about that. I don't think it's genocide really, just civil war. Which for me, their civil war makes it their business and we need to keep our noses out. Same with Vietnam and Korea. I think we should've stayed out. Although, I think since we did send our troops to 'Nam, we should've supported them a lot more than we did. Actually, that's a negative case that provided a good result. If you see now, even people who don't support Bush and don't support the war in America, do still support our troops in the middle east. We support doing everything we can to help them over there, since someone with more authority sent them, rather they wanted to be there or not. See, negative that taught us a posotive lesson.
You can't just look at the bad things, you have to look at the posotives that come out of a situation. And you can't have shadows without light to cast them, so for the bad things there has to be a good thing, and for the good things there has to be a bad thing.
You make a good point Seffy, assuming it was written by man. We weren't there in those ages, so we can't say. We can either believe what we're told from religious historians or believe they were lying. Personally, I believe that in those days God directly interacted with the people, and thus, even if they did write it, it was written as he wanted it to be. I believe the direct interaction stopped after the death of Jesus, because then Jesus became the gateway to God. But that's my personal belief on that. I respect that you believe that it was just written by men with their own views.
Even still, you did admit something I was going to bring up: does it really matter who wrote it? The Bible teaches positive things for a better life, and that's what really matters. Even if you're not religious, there are a lot of posotive things that a person can get out of the Bible.
As for your thing about your book: Most likely it would not. Because there are no people to lead it. Every religion that I can recall had prophets and priests for the religion. Islam, Christianity, Mormanism (which I do not personally count as a sect of christianity, as some people do.), Buddhism, Judism, etc. Although if you had people you preached your book to as a religion, who then followed it as a religion, and took it up, then yes it could become one.
I like the question posed about Tolkien and elves. But the obvious answer is no. You do not have to believe it. The Bible exists, and you can read it, but that does not mean you are forced to believe in God. I believe that he gave us free will to make choices, and one of those choices is rather to believe in him or not.
As for the comment, no worries. I just thought that you might've been taking me as a little kid and so I got irked about that even though I shouldn't have, lol.
A note on Mistress's thing about negatives: I was on SNAFU awhile back. There was this article someone posted about a gay guy who wanted AIDS and wanted to get his son raped so he'd get AIDS as well. Really negative and messed up. A few days later someone posts about the Make A Wish Foundation helping a little girl live her dream. And it came around to how people were dragged down more by the AIDS Thing and they said "Well look, you tell stories about psychopaths who want to be sick with AIDS and then all you use to see posotivies is a story about a dying little girl! Which is depressining itself. So how do you expect not to feel down and negative?"
And that person was right. We always look to the negatives, even in a posotive situation. Sure it's great that she got helped, but we see that the girl is still dying. So we're sad. We see psychos who -want- AIDS, and we're sad. So we LOOK FOR the negatives. It's something that's a bad choice on the part of our society today. We've become so pessemistic that we force ourselves not to believe that there is good in the world.
I've been this way. I remember my first experience with vallet parking. I was like "You just trust them with your keys and car and pay them?!?!" I thought it was crazy. I think when we came back and the car was there, as we had left it, was when I realized that the world wasn't primarially evil with a few good people. Rather, it's primarially good, with a minority of evil people.
As for Good and Evil, I'm not defining that in religious terms, so don't think I mean like evil in the satanic or non believing sense. I believe there are plenty of good people who aren't religious.
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Post by 2bfoundwanting on Jul 6, 2006 1:05:21 GMT -5
Actually, Seffy's book may very well become a religion. While I agree with everything else you wrote, Ty, being in my anthropolgy class I have seen many cases of religions that are created from nothing, or from one psychadelic experience or some finding in a text.
Like the Holly Rollers, we watched something on them today. They base their whole religion on two sentances in .. Mark I believe, not positive. But they believe it with their whole heart, and to watch them in their services... who am I to say that waht they believe isn't real?
Or what about Mormonism? Some guy had a visionary trance and decided that a new religion needed to be made, and that was only a little while ago relatively.
Religious innovators come from unsatisfaction with our current lives and an innability to live with stress. They generally have a visionary trance and then they find a few hundred people to follow them. They are considered cults for a certain while, but once they reach a certain number of people they are suddenly religions.
Now I have grown to respect Christianity greatly simply from this conversation. But in the time it began, it was just a cult. They were thought of as crazy for their beliefs. I think its just so arbitrary which religion is the right one. I mean, how come you believe in the Chirstain God over the Budhist one? And can you honestly say you would still believe the same way if you lived in India or Africa or Afghanistan?
What about in the Greek and Roman times? They really truely believed in Zues and the rest. Are you to say you wouldn't believe in that if you didn't live in those times? And when I say you, I dont mean you specifically Ty, cuz i realize you must be feeling somewhat attacked seeing as your one of the few defending your beliefs while the rest of us are just attacking. I just mean you in general.
What makes you so sure that your religion is the right one?
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Post by moogman on Jul 6, 2006 2:26:03 GMT -5
darn you Missy that was almost the point i was about to make, what i would like to ask wich is very relevant to Missy's point is this, do people who believe in say christianity beleive that people from other religions wont go to there after life when they die? do you expect them to go to your heaven or hell? i mean if you really beleive in your religion enough to think that you will be going to heaven sureley everyone on the planet who does not beleive are just ignorant and will end up there anyway aslong as they arent evil?
Back on the subject of the whole child gets ran over thing and if you were that childs father and had the power of god would you change anything, (sorry to get completley stuck on this) but even if it does serve a higher purpose how can you say that one childs life is worth that? I mean even if killing one child changed the world around there was no more hunger no more disease could you take that childs life? I dont think any higher purpose is worth taking a childs life? or any life for that matter.
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Post by seffy on Jul 6, 2006 4:28:16 GMT -5
Flipping heck guys, my eyeballs are aching from reading everything you all put down. You wrote all that lot down in one night? I'm impressed ;D There are some people, and this is in general, that spend their whole lives trying to prove that God doesn't exist. What is the purpose in that? To me that tells me that they want something to believe in or they wouldn't spend their whole lives trying to say that it doesn't exist or isn't there. Now, I don't take it that you're referring to me specifically, but I'll tell you what I believe. If I can see, touch it, hear it, smell it, it's real. It's there. If I can perform tests and predict the results, then what I'm testing is real, it exists. I look at the world around me and I can see it, I know it's there. I look up at the night sky and see the stars and I know the universe is there. I've even been to the Jodrell Bank radio telescope station in Cheshire here in the UK (it's only about 20 miles from where I live) and I've listened to the sound of the universe, heard 'the voice' of the universe if you will. It was amazing, totally mind-blowing. The universe is real, it exists. Ive seen it and I've heard it. When I was a teenager, I sat in my living room one day, totally alone and in so much emotional pain I couldn't begin to describe it (I probably wouldn't need to anyway as I've no doubt we've all been there, or close to it, before. I know Missy certainly has). I asked a simple question in the silence, a question born of the torment I was in at the time. I heard nothing, I saw nothing. I'm still scarred to this day, over 25 years later, by the events of that time. And 25 years later, I've still heard nothing and seen nothing. Yes, I survived those times, but I survived because I refused to give in. It was my own determination that pulled me through, my own strength that kept me going. There was never anything even remotely religious that helped me, either then or since then. I don't believe in God or religion because I have been given nothing to believe in, my rational mind can see nothing to believe in. There is nothing but the universe out there for me to believe in.
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Post by Tyual on Jul 6, 2006 14:49:36 GMT -5
Lisi: "Or what about Mormonism? Some guy had a visionary trance and decided that a new religion needed to be made, and that was only a little while ago relatively. "
Yes, but he fit into what I was saying, he propheted his own religion =P
What I was saying is that religion, without invocators, will not form. I don't think so at least. There has to be someone to say they worship this or that and bring people to follow them for there to be a religion. So although it could possibly become a religion, I doubt it would be unless he taught it to people as one.
Also, you called it a cult? Want to tell me what your defining difference in a cult and a religion is, except the number of people who follow it? Because I view all cults as religions. In general society, we deem them cults as a degrogatory term because we think they're wrong. So I don't call them cults, just because they have a different religion than mine.
Also: Jesus is the only prophet of a religion whose body is undiscovered. Buddha, he was a person not a God, he made a way of life. Some people many generations later decided he was a God come to earth in mortal form to teach them, but Buddha himself did not teach that. Islam, Muhhamded is buried somewhere, and they know where his bones are as well, if I recall my history class right. The Greeks/Romans didn't really have prophets so much as wild stories to explain things. Theirs was all mystical, so there is nothing to find there. But of the religions who have prophets known to walk the earth, Jesus is the only one who's body isn't found. Why? Because he was the real thing. He lived, died, and resurrected.
Although that may not be as well written as I'd like, I believe if you've studied it before, you will know what I'm talking about. And for me, learning that was one of the major factors in me choosing my faith at one point, because I was exploring religion and seeing what this one versus that one and such. I wasn't sure which one was the right one, if any were.
Also: Christianity is widespread. In some places it may not be the dominant religion, but it is there. So I may believe if I were in that place, or I may not. I don't live there though, and wasn't born there, so I don't know and can't say for sure.
Moog: Yes, as sad as it is, we believe that you will go to hell for being atheist. Does that make you a bad person? No, not by my book. But when the time comes as I believe it, then I believe the consequence of your choice not to believe is going to hell.
That's the point missionaries are supposed to have, if they do their job right. To bring people to God so that they won't go to hell. To bring them to know God and salvation so that they can go to Heaven. However, when you have overzealous fools as 90% of the missionaries, then they don't get their job done.
As for taking the life, that's your view. You're entitled to it. I however, disagree. I'm sorry, but if you told me shooting some random kid on the street would bring world peace, end world hunger, remove diseases from the world, etc, I'd have to shoot the kid. I would. I know that' s cruel, but one life for millions, billions? I can carry that on my shoulders.
Look at it like this: If you knew for a certifable fact that some kid was going to grow up and be the next Hitler, and you were told you could kill him or let him live and kill millions of people, wouldn't you kill him to save all those people? It's still taking a life for the betterment of the world, just in a different form.
Seffy: Sorry you had to go through whatever it was in your life. And again I say, God doesn't do everything for us. We have to help ourselves before we can expect him to help us. And that is one lesson I've learned the hard way in the past two or three years. I always turned to God. It was God's fault, why didn't God do something, or God what do I do? And finally, I quit trying to make God do everything for me and started helping myself. I've found that since then, I've been able to find God's influence in different places in my life a lot easier.
So God doesn't always help us. Sometimes, we have to help ourselves. It even says in the Bible that God helps those who help themselves. So although we may not realize where we're helped by him, I'm sure that we are. I've had some times where I thought I'd been forsaken, but looking back know, I can see that I wasn't in so many ways. Even when I was mad at him and hated him and even disbelieved at certain points in my life, God still kept me with him. And for that, I'm blessed and thankful.
Also, I've learned not to believe everything I see and hear and feel, because my senses lie to me. I've seen things that weren't real, I've felt things that weren't there, I've heard things that never made a noise. So although I follow by rule of thumb the same idea, I know that there are cases when I cannot believe by that, and I have to go on my instinct. And in the case of religion, it's much like this, because it's not a physical existance. However, for me, my instinct tells me that there has to be a God.
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Post by 2bfoundwanting on Jul 6, 2006 16:09:28 GMT -5
First, I called it a cult because thats what society calls it. I was making a comment on society and how as soon as it has enough followers it becomes legitimate, but not until then.
And Ty, I think this is one of the first thing I have completely dissagreed with you on. I think that to say that because someone doesn't believe in the Christain God they wont go to heaven... is terrible. It made me angry to read it. I think that is absoluetly ridiculous that some God would put an innocent, good person into Hell because they didn't believe in Him. What kind of egotistic stance is that?
"Oh, youre a wonderful person, youve helped hundreds of people, youve never lied/stolen/cheated or murdered. But hey, Cuz you dont believe in ME your going to suffer in HELL for all of eternity. Sorry Buddy"
That is the main reason I dont believe in the Christain God. I refuse to believe that there is some higher creature out there that is that sadistic. What does it matter if you pray to him and love him and worship him if you are a good, just person? Is he that insecure that he needs you to say I LOVE YOU GOD as an admittance into Heaven? That is ridiculous. Ridiculous. And it makes me furious.
As you all know, I waver on whether there is a God or not, but there is so much evidence against it, and only faith alone for it. Its hard for a reasonable person to not see that. I envy people who have so much faith that they can believe blindly in the will of God. I really do. Every day i feel like I am missing something because I cant make myself believe in God. I cant make myself in something so sadistic as to put a person in neverending torment for not believing in him, or for anything at all.
I mean, where did Hell and Heaven come from? I mean what is that? Did we come up with it because we are scared of death? We want life after? We are flesh and bone and we are molecules and we will decompose when we die. Our brains are muscles that will shut off. Our conciousness is contained in this muscle and it will go away. We wont exist. Is that why it is so scary?
Well i am not afraid of death. I am not afraid of my death, and when others die i understand that it is their time. Yes it is terrible for everyone around the child for it to have died prematurely. It is terrible for anyones life to be stolen from them. BUT WE ALL DIE. Every single one of us will die. It is inevitable, and the only reason we have such a taboo about certain people dying certain ways is because we are scared. Scared to death.
Wow. I havn't gotten this upset in a while. I think Ill just stop now before I start rambling about inconsequential things.
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Post by Tyual on Jul 6, 2006 16:32:15 GMT -5
"And Ty, I think this is one of the first thing I have completely dissagreed with you on. I think that to say that because someone doesn't believe in the Christain God they wont go to heaven... is terrible. It made me angry to read it. I think that is absoluetly ridiculous that some God would put an innocent, good person into Hell because they didn't believe in Him. What kind of egotistic stance is that? "
That's not me being egotistical, that's the religion I follow and what I believe. You don't have to agree with it. Does it mean I agree with God, thinking that he should send all non-believers to hell? No it doesn't, but it does mean that's what I believe will happen. Sorry if you don't like it.
Heaven and hell have existed in some form or another almost as far as religions. The greeks called it Olympus and Hades, the Christians call it Heaven and Hell, these people call it this and those people call it that. I'm not a religious scholar and so I can't tell you the very beginning of the concept, and the concept of a place for different people to go in the afterlife has been around since before Christianity. So I come to find that if so many different people from so many different time periods and from so many different religions believe in it in one form or another, then something of the concept must exist. That's how I think of it at least.
Although I doubt it's because of fear of death. I don't fear death. It's something that happens. The one certain thing from the time life starts is that you will die. It makes no sense to be scared of it. Just be prepared, and do your best to leave something worthwhile when you go. So regardless of how Heaven and Hell's concepts came about, I don't think fear of death was the reason.
God made humans because he wanted companions to have a relationship with. That's why he gave us free will and the ability to think. If he wanted mindless worshipping followers, he'd have created the angels and nothing more. So yeah, when he doesn't get what he created us for, I'm sure he gets pretty ticked about it. Say you create something, but it never serves the purpose you intended it to, wouldn't you be upset?
It says God made man in his image, man has an abundance of emotion. That leads me to believe that God does as well. So it means he's capable of being mad and hurt and sad just like we are. And when we do things that defy his intentions, then can't you see why he would be upset? You'd be upset if your creation defied your intentions in a bad way.
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Post by 2bfoundwanting on Jul 6, 2006 16:35:57 GMT -5
I wasn't calling you egotistical, Ty, I was calling God egotistical. Im not making an attack on you personally, though Im sure it looked that way. Im sorry.. i was just, a bit upset to read over my words.
And as eloquent as that rebutal was, I still completely disagree. And as far as Hades and all that. At least in Hades the poor sould weren't being burned and tortured. They just didn't get to go to the Elisian fields. And I dont think God should get ticked off. If he is so amazing, where is his patience? But Im not asking that in a way that I mean you ahve to answer me. Im taking a break from the religious debate for a day or so. Ive got some stuff to think about it.
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Post by Tyual on Jul 6, 2006 16:57:50 GMT -5
Where is God's patience....when he forgives every sin except for the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit you ask where his patience is? Maybe in the unlimited number of times he forgives us when we screw up....
Sorry, I thought you were calling me egotistical, lol. God, yeah I'd say he is egotistical to be honest.
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Post by seffy on Jul 6, 2006 18:30:07 GMT -5
I believe it is Human fear that brought about the concept of heaven and hell. I also believe it was human fear that brought about religion in the first place. Primitive man had religions for all sorts of things. As man developed, the religions were narrowed. They didn't worship the sun amd the moon anymore, instead they had certain festivals such as the Summer and Winter Solstice. As the emergent religions began to grow, more-so Christianity, and spread, they adopted some of these festivals in an attempt to appease the newly, and forcefully, converted people (it's interesting to note that Christmas day falls on the exact same day as the Pagan festival of Samhain (sp) and that Easter falls at the same time as certain Harvest festivals of now extinct religions). But, going back to the fear element. Primitive man used to know two things. During the light of day, there was safety. The wild animals that used to hunt them could be seen a long way off and they could hunt those animals that they themselves used for food. So the light of daytime was good. The night held only fear. Fear of animals, both real and imaginary, and fear of death. You see depictions of heaven and hell, even ones done today, and you see heaven as filled with light, bright golden sunlight. You see hell and it's dark inspite of the fire and brimstone. Humans do fear death. It's inherrant in our nature. We fear it because it's the end of our life on earth and because it's the ultimate unknown. What we don't know, we fear. With the promise of everlasting life in a sun-filled paradise, religion has the ultimate tool for converting the unbelievers, for bringing them over to their way of thinking and, ultimately, under their control. Once you control the people, you control everything they have. Is it any wonder the church is the single richest organisation in the world today? Ironic also that they used to preach piousness and abstenance from earthly wealth. Another reason for controlling the people is to control what they think. Is this the reason the church tried to stop the study of the sciences? And I'm not talking about the books of Dan Brown here, I'm talking about the Inquisition. The church was responsible for holding up science for almost 500 years and forcing the study of science underground. Great minds such as Coppernicus, Gallileo and Da Vinci were forced to risk their lives in order to stucy their science, to risk being branded as heretics for discovering that the Earth wasn't the center of the universe, that it was the Earth that revolved around the sun and not vice versa. The church didn't even officially recognise this as the truth until the early 20th century. What else are they wrong about?
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Post by wiilyr on Jul 7, 2006 0:00:15 GMT -5
Okay, I'm a little, nay, very reluctant to post in this thread, but here goes:
The Inquisition was a result of a corrupt church, a corrupt religion if you will. As a Catholic, I can say that. I consider the Papacy to be a problematic religious power that has too much of a monopoly on Western religious thought. I can also tell you that current practices are completely out of touch with the times and date back to the middle ages and further. I firmly believe priests should be able to marry (it would solve a lot of the abuse issues w/i the church that we're always hearing about on the news), that women should be able to become priests ('cause they can do just about every dam thing else in the Catholic Church, 'cept they gotta become nuns), and that the Pope is not on a hotline to God like many people think (He's really nothing more than a glorified priest, let's be honest). I've got a bazillion other tiny complaints, but I won't get into those (especially the whole Purgatory deal ... if you want to know more PM me and I'll explain my issues with it).
Anyway, why do I choose to be Catholic in all that? Maybe partly because it's what I grew up with, but also because in my near 22 years living it's something I've come to believe in. I could very well have been some other Christian denomination, but I choose to be Catholic because it best fits how I want to live. I like the habits of mass every week even though I don't necessarily agree on everything.
Anyway, my faith is my own. I don't force it on others, I just tell them what I think. You're free to make your own decisions. And it's not like I haven't rebelled in the past. I'm not perfect, nor do I claim to be. "To err is human" (Alexander Pope). But for me to exist from day to day I have to believe that God exists. Sure, he's a selfish God, but he's always there for me even if I don't see it right away. Hasn't let me down yet. I've seen what he can do in my life, so I choose to believe.
As for faith, well, it's a personal thing. Religion tries to make it this whole big group activity that says everyone has to believe a,b, and c or you're wrong. That's not how it should be. Faith is personal. It's my beliefs. For you, it's your beliefs. We all have to have faith and hope in something or we cannot strive to be better than we are. Life has no purpose without hope and faith. The purpose of all religions, when you strip away all the pretenses and the problems, is becoming more than you are; it's striving to be something better, something greater.
For Christians, the moral compass we follow is Jesus and the Bible. You can't take it all literally. Things have gotten muddled in the translations, but you can't take it all at face value. Heck, if we were living by the Old Testament, no woman would be more than a slave really. it'd be a pretty crummy world plain and simple. The Bible is a set of guidelines. It's the basis of the Christian life. It's also why many Christians believe that non Christians wont' be going to Heaven because it's explicitely stated throughout the New Testament.
I'll admit it. I struggle with the idea of religion and even my own beliefs daily. It's not an easy subject and it's something I could study my whole life and be none the wiser really. I trust that there is a God and that he loves me and watches out for me. I may not get a direct response from him, but every day there is something in my life that I find myself in awe of. That's why I choose to belive.
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Post by Tyual on Jul 7, 2006 1:49:56 GMT -5
Wile you did indeed place it very well. I'm in a similar situation.
Actually, although I go to a Baptist church when I can be bothered to go, I really claim no denomination. Why? I disagree with the church. Why? The church teaches fanatics and extremes and that you should try to be perfect and act holier than thou to people who aren't. Well I'm not perfect and I'm not going to act like it or be holier than thou to other people. So they can shove that. I have issues with the church in general about things like this, and that's why I don't go a lot anymore, and when I do, I rarely go for more than a month consecutively (ask Mistress.) Why? I get sick of their simple minded fanaticisms and spurting of things that they don't even understand what they're saying in the first place. So I stop going and leave them to their fanatics.
I agree about the Catholic thing. Generally, I disagree with a lot of Catholic practices, although I believe some of them are no longer in use. But that's just me.
Seffy, you're entitled to believe that it's fear and that fear is innate in human nature and fear of the unknown, but I can tell you that I disagree. I disagree as a personal testimony to it. Because I do -not- fear the unknown. I do not fear death or what will happen to me afterwards, rather it be heaven, hell, absolutely nothing, or reincarnation. I'm not scared of it. And it's not because I've forced my mind to be that way, I've just never been scared of death. So I don't believe it's right to say that it's human nature to be scared of death.
Many pagan holidays and symbolisms can be seen in modern Christianity. Why? It made it easier for the convertees to accept the religion. If they still had similarities then they were more likely to accept it. That's just common sense. I mean, as tacky as this sounds, go read Dan Brown's Angels and Demons and The DaVinci Code. It really does give good examples of it.
Christmas and Easter aren't the actual days that the events in history occured, they are just the days that we have chosen to celebrate them, as you said, probably based on the pagan religion to make the adaption of Christianity easier. I mean, we do the Sabbath on Sunday, but the Sabbath is actually Saturday.
The Inquisition, as Wile pointed out, was the result of a corrupt church. However, as you mention that, let me point something out: Please don't associate my Christianity with Catholic Christianity, because although Catholic was the origins, Christianity as I believe in it, and most prodestant religions do, is highly different in practices and beliefs. I'd rather not have what I judged based on the ignorance of a different sect of the overall religion years and years ago.
Personally, I support the advancement of science. The more we can understand about how God's creations work, the better. Because that's how I look at it, we're just figuring out how the things God made work. Which I find interesting and fun. I don't find it as a threat to disprove God. Why? Because I believe God exists and that science cannot possibly disprove it, so I'm not afraid of it.
And it's almost 3am and a girl has me thinking with the wrong head right now, so I'm gonna stop now before I say something stupid...
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Post by moogman on Jul 7, 2006 2:03:46 GMT -5
but what if your wrong and say another religion is spot on the money? does that mean the believers of christinaity will go to there equivalent of hell? its a bit of a gamble if you look at it that way? i mean how many religions are there in the world?
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Post by Tyual on Jul 7, 2006 2:17:26 GMT -5
If you look at it from an outsiders view, then yes, it is kind of risky, lol. Because most religions think if you're not their religion, then you go to hell. This is where faith that your religion is the right one comes into play.
Sorry, I can't think coherently enough to give a good detailed responce....girl....330 am....
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